http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/ The is research on going regarding alternative therapy …therapy which is used with traditional therapy.

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http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/ The is research on going regarding alternative therapy …therapy which is used with traditional therapy.

That is great advice. I combined the traditional with homeopathic.  A good homeopathic Dr. should be able to help you get through the chemo by providing natural solutions to ease any chemo side effects ( or to avoid them.). In addition, you may also be able to take your natural immune booster too if it is not counter indicated for your chemo.  However, your homeopathic Dr. must be experienced in this method, so finding one that is capable may be the hard part. It is not an either or situation.  Let your body have the best available of both types of theraphy so you may enjoy the rest of your life.

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This is my intention.  For instance, I don’t want any "Adriamycin" injected in my veins.  There is another drug, approved by Health Canada, Caelyx, which is supposed to be as effective without the side effects of Adriamycin.

Caelyx *is* Adriamycin, Monique – it’s just encapsulated in fat cells. The mechanism of action is the same but the drug is better tolerated in a lot of people. — allan we don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are. — Anais Nin

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Bof.  J’ai vu un proche mourir du cancer. Il avait subi la chimioth

Your success is not in how much you lose or if you go off plan for a bit, your success is in NOT giving up.  You haven’t given up so take an NSV and move on, good for you, Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you to everyone.  I am feeling more positive just having got all of that of my chest.  I know that I am bound to have difficult weeks but I don’t want that to be an excuse for giving up Thanks again Hazell I didn’t report my weigh in last week, not because I wasn’t around or because I forgot, but because I didn’t really know what to say. I gained a pound and a half last week and I was disappointed,mostly because the last four or five months have been a constant round of up and down. I looked at my card and realised I hadn’t lost weight for two weeks in a row in ages. At the end of the meeting my leader came over to speak to me. She could see I was cheesed off and wanted to see if she could help.  She asked after my mother who she has met when we have done charity runs and stuff and all of a sudden I found myself in tears in the middle of the meeting.  My mother has motor neurone disease and though it was progressing slowly for a while the last few months she has gone down hill quite a lot.  Afterwards I was quite ashamed of myself and felt I had used my mother’s illness as an reason for overeating and an excuse for failure. This is not something I ever want to do – especially as my Mum is busy living her life to the full.  I feel almost as if I don’t have the right to sit and wallow if she doesn’t.  I was quite down about it for a few days but I made a promise to myself that I would lose weight this week and I did – 3 1/2 pounds. But now I want to make myself a new promise.  When I go back to the scales next week I don’t want to have put half of it back on agian.  I want to lose weight for two weeks in a row and that is my new goal. I hope you don’t mind me sticking all of this down.  I’m getting married in January, earlier than I had planned to but we wanted Mum to be able to celebrate with us as much as possible.  I want to look good on my wedding day and I don’t want to make any excuses for not getting to where I want to be Thanks for letting me get this off my chest All the best to everyone this week Hazell

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You WILL do it !!!!! *hugs n stuff* — Will~ 196.2 / 131.8 / 137 lbs 89 / 59.8 / 62.1 Kg Personal goal 125 lbs / 56.7 Kg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t report my weigh in last week, not because I wasn’t around or because I forgot, but because I didn’t really know what to say. I gained a pound and a half last week and I was disappointed,mostly because the last four or five months have been a constant round of up and down. I looked at my card and realised I hadn’t lost weight for two weeks in a row in ages. At the end of the meeting my leader came over to speak to me. She could see I was cheesed off and wanted to see if she could help.  She asked after my mother who she has met when we have done charity runs and stuff and all of a sudden I found myself in tears in the middle of the meeting.  My mother has motor neurone disease and though it was progressing slowly for a while the last few months she has gone down hill quite a lot.  Afterwards I was quite ashamed of myself and felt I had used my mother’s illness as an reason for overeating and an excuse for failure. This is not something I ever want to do – especially as my Mum is busy living her life to the full.  I feel almost as if I don’t have the right to sit and wallow if she doesn’t.  I was quite down about it for a few days but I made a promise to myself that I would lose weight this week and I did – 3 1/2 pounds. But now I want to make myself a new promise.  When I go back to the scales next week I don’t want to have put half of it back on agian.  I want to lose weight for two weeks in a row and that is my new goal. I hope you don’t mind me sticking all of this down.  I’m getting married in January, earlier than I had planned to but we wanted Mum to be able to celebrate with us as much as possible.  I want to look good on my wedding day and I don’t want to make any excuses for not getting to where I want to be Thanks for letting me get this off my chest All the best to everyone this week Hazell

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So sorry to hear about your mom Hazell.  I better than anyone know what stress can do when you’re trying to stay OP.  Good luck with it and post often, we’re all here to support you. — Brenda 209/193/150

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I didn’t report my weigh in last week, not because I wasn’t around or because I forgot, but because I didn’t really know what to say. I gained a pound and a half last week and I was disappointed,mostly because the last four or five months have been a constant round of up and down. I looked at my card and realised I hadn’t lost weight for two weeks in a row in ages. At the end of the meeting my leader came over to speak to me. She could see I was cheesed off and wanted to see if she could help.  She asked after my mother who she has met when we have done charity runs and stuff and all of a sudden I found myself in tears in the middle of the meeting.  My mother has motor neurone disease and though it was progressing slowly for a while the last few months she has gone down hill quite a lot.  Afterwards I was quite ashamed of myself and felt I had used my mother’s illness as an reason for overeating and an excuse for failure. This is not something I ever want to do – especially as my Mum is busy living her life to the full.  I feel almost as if I don’t have the right to sit and wallow if she doesn’t.  I was quite down about it for a few days but I made a promise to myself that I would lose weight this week and I did – 3 1/2 pounds. But now I want to make myself a new promise.  When I go back to the scales next week I don’t want to have put half of it back on agian.  I want to lose weight for two weeks in a row and that is my new goal. I hope you don’t mind me sticking all of this down.  I’m getting married in January, earlier than I had planned to but we wanted Mum to be able to celebrate with us as much as possible.  I want to look good on my wedding day and I don’t want to make any excuses for not getting to where I want to be Thanks for letting me get this off my chest All the best to everyone this week Hazell

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I am so glad you are working through these feelings.  Sometimes when a loved one hurts we are hurt for them and also hurt for ourselves.  Both are valid ways to feel.  I always allow my sad feelings like this but I actually put a timelimit on them so they have an ending and I start working on going to the next thing.  I don’t always manage it but it does help sometimes.  I think you need to take a giant NSV for looking at your situation and assessing what is going on, and take a hug to go with that NSV, I so understand how you feel, Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t report my weigh in last week, not because I wasn’t around or because I forgot, but because I didn’t really know what to say. I gained a pound and a half last week and I was disappointed,mostly because the last four or five months have been a constant round of up and down. I looked at my card and realised I hadn’t lost weight for two weeks in a row in ages. At the end of the meeting my leader came over to speak to me. She could see I was cheesed off and wanted to see if she could help.  She asked after my mother who she has met when we have done charity runs and stuff and all of a sudden I found myself in tears in the middle of the meeting.  My mother has motor neurone disease and though it was progressing slowly for a while the last few months she has gone down hill quite a lot.  Afterwards I was quite ashamed of myself and felt I had used my mother’s illness as an reason for overeating and an excuse for failure. This is not something I ever want to do – especially as my Mum is busy living her life to the full.  I feel almost as if I don’t have the right to sit and wallow if she doesn’t.  I was quite down about it for a few days but I made a promise to myself that I would lose weight this week and I did – 3 1/2 pounds. But now I want to make myself a new promise.  When I go back to the scales next week I don’t want to have put half of it back on agian.  I want to lose weight for two weeks in a row and that is my new goal. I hope you don’t mind me sticking all of this down.  I’m getting married in January, earlier than I had planned to but we wanted Mum to be able to celebrate with us as much as possible.  I want to look good on my wedding day and I don’t want to make any excuses for not getting to where I want to be Thanks for letting me get this off my chest All the best to everyone this week Hazell

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Thank you to everyone.  I am feeling more positive just having got all of that of my chest.  I know that I am bound to have difficult weeks but I don’t want that to be an excuse for giving up Thanks again Hazell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t report my weigh in last week, not because I wasn’t around or because I forgot, but because I didn’t really know what to say. I gained a pound and a half last week and I was disappointed,mostly because the last four or five months have been a constant round of up and down. I looked at my card and realised I hadn’t lost weight for two weeks in a row in ages. At the end of the meeting my leader came over to speak to me. She could see I was cheesed off and wanted to see if she could help.  She asked after my mother who she has met when we have done charity runs and stuff and all of a sudden I found myself in tears in the middle of the meeting.  My mother has motor neurone disease and though it was progressing slowly for a while the last few months she has gone down hill quite a lot.  Afterwards I was quite ashamed of myself and felt I had used my mother’s illness as an reason for overeating and an excuse for failure. This is not something I ever want to do – especially as my Mum is busy living her life to the full.  I feel almost as if I don’t have the right to sit and wallow if she doesn’t.  I was quite down about it for a few days but I made a promise to myself that I would lose weight this week and I did – 3 1/2 pounds. But now I want to make myself a new promise.  When I go back to the scales next week I don’t want to have put half of it back on agian.  I want to lose weight for two weeks in a row and that is my new goal. I hope you don’t mind me sticking all of this down.  I’m getting married in January, earlier than I had planned to but we wanted Mum to be able to celebrate with us as much as possible.  I want to look good on my wedding day and I don’t want to make any excuses for not getting to where I want to be Thanks for letting me get this off my chest All the best to everyone this week Hazell

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Please do not  berate yourself Hazell. Stress from family illness is the most difficult thing to handle – I know as I have just been through the ringer also. We just try to keep our head above water & if we gain, we will lose it again. This is not an excuse for overeating! A lot of people turn to drugs at a time like this and I think that food just replaces these drugs and allows us to manage to survive. Just keep on struggling and you will succeed, but do not let anyone berate you for eating during such an emotional time. My prayers are with you. Elaine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t report my weigh in last week, not because I wasn’t around or because I forgot, but because I didn’t really know what to say. I gained a pound and a half last week and I was disappointed,mostly because the last four or five months have been a constant round of up and down. I looked at my card and realised I hadn’t lost weight for two weeks in a row in ages. At the end of the meeting my leader came over to speak to me. She could see I was cheesed off and wanted to see if she could help.  She asked after my mother who she has met when we have done charity runs and stuff and all of a sudden I found myself in tears in the middle of the meeting.  My mother has motor neurone disease and though it was progressing slowly for a while the last few months she has gone down hill quite a lot.  Afterwards I was quite ashamed of myself and felt I had used my mother’s illness as an reason for overeating and an excuse for failure. This is not something I ever want to do – especially as my Mum is busy living her life to the full.  I feel almost as if I don’t have the right to sit and wallow if she doesn’t.  I was quite down about it for a few days but I made a promise to myself that I would lose weight this week and I did – 3 1/2 pounds. But now I want to make myself a new promise.  When I go back to the scales next week I don’t want to have put half of it back on agian.  I want to lose weight for two weeks in a row and that is my new goal. I hope you don’t mind me sticking all of this down.  I’m getting married in January, earlier than I had planned to but we wanted Mum to be able to celebrate with us as much as possible.  I want to look good on my wedding day and I don’t want to make any excuses for not getting to where I want to be Thanks for letting me get this off my chest All the best to everyone this week Hazell

Response:

Good job getting back on track. You life has become very stressfull so it is understandable what you are going through. You have a goal–your wedding in January. Don’t lose sight of that event to pull you away from your program. This is going to be a hard week for all of us to keep on track. Don’t forget to journal even tomorrow and watch your portion sizes too. That’s what caused me to no lose any weight in the month of October. Get back to weighing and measuring and journaling. You CAN do it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t report my weigh in last week, not because I wasn’t around or because I forgot, but because I didn’t really know what to say. I gained a pound and a half last week and I was disappointed,mostly because the last four or five months have been a constant round of up and down. I looked at my card and realised I hadn’t lost weight for two weeks in a row in ages. At the end of the meeting my leader came over to speak to me. She could see I was cheesed off and wanted to see if she could help.  She asked after my mother who she has met when we have done charity runs and stuff and all of a sudden I found myself in tears in the middle of the meeting.  My mother has motor neurone disease and though it was progressing slowly for a while the last few months she has gone down hill quite a lot.  Afterwards I was quite ashamed of myself and felt I had used my mother’s illness as an reason for overeating and an excuse for failure. This is not something I ever want to do – especially as my Mum is busy living her life to the full.  I feel almost as if I don’t have the right to sit and wallow if she doesn’t.  I was quite down about it for a few days but I made a promise to myself that I would lose weight this week and I did – 3 1/2 pounds. But now I want to make myself a new promise.  When I go back to the scales next week I don’t want to have put half of it back on agian.  I want to lose weight for two weeks in a row and that is my new goal. I hope you don’t mind me sticking all of this down.  I’m getting married in January, earlier than I had planned to but we wanted Mum to be able to celebrate with us as much as possible.  I want to look good on my wedding day and I don’t want to make any excuses for not getting to where I want to be Thanks for letting me get this off my chest All the best to everyone this week Hazell

Response:

I didn’t report my weigh in last week, not because I wasn’t around or because I forgot, but because I didn’t really know what to say. I gained a pound and a half last week and I was disappointed,mostly because the last four or five months have been a constant round of up and down. I looked at my card and realised I hadn’t lost weight for two weeks in a row in ages. At the end of the meeting my leader came over to speak to me. She could see I was cheesed off and wanted to see if she could help.  She asked after my mother who she has met when we have done charity runs and stuff and all of a sudden I found myself in tears in the middle of the meeting.  My mother has motor neurone disease and though it was progressing slowly for a while the last few months she has gone down hill quite a lot.  Afterwards I was quite ashamed of myself and felt I had used my mother’s illness as an reason for overeating and an excuse for failure. This is not something I ever want to do – especially as my Mum is busy living her life to the full.  I feel almost as if I don’t have the right to sit and wallow if she doesn’t.  I was quite down about it for a few days but I made a promise to myself that I would lose weight this week and I did – 3 1/2 pounds. But now I want to make myself a new promise.  When I go back to the scales next week I don’t want to have put half of it back on agian.  I want to lose weight for two weeks in a row and that is my new goal. I hope you don’t mind me sticking all of this down.  I’m getting married in January, earlier than I had planned to but we wanted Mum to be able to celebrate with us as much as possible.  I want to look good on my wedding day and I don’t want to make any excuses for not getting to where I want to be Thanks for letting me get this off my chest All the best to everyone this week Hazell

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||| |||| So, I asked a question on alt.support.diet.low-carb and |||| rec.running on whether running a *half marathon* on LC was |||| possible. ||| ||| Haven’t these sort of experiments already been done? ||| ||| Phil M. ||| || || I did some googling and did not find any, so, if you find something, || please let me know! || || Also, even if someone did it, I was still curious if *I* can do it. Rudy!!…..Rudy has done this….she used to report on it right in here…. Google this newsgroup for RRVRR.

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Hmmm David … that’s just off the wall wrong …. your statement is wrong … wrong … wrong … geeezzz The human brain functions quite nicely on ketones. Why would you make such a statement without at least doing preliminary research? That’s why I warn people who come to this newsgroup to take what is said here with a grain of salt, cross check what is posted here, make sure what is being stated is true. Placid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes… of course it’s possible. Why anyone would want to do it is another question. You need a minimum of 120 grams of carbs per day just to support normal brain and muscle function… let alone run a half marathon. But sure… it’s possible. Some guy in London ran a full marathon wearing an old fashioned diving suit complete with the huge brass bell on his head and lead boots. He did it… but I don’t imagine he or his body enjoyed it. Much like running on a low carb diet. — Nova Scotia, Canada

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, I asked a question on alt.support.diet.low-carb and rec.running on whether running a *half marathon* on LC was possible. Haven’t these sort of experiments already been done? Phil M. I did some googling and did not find any, so, if you find something, please let me know! Also, even if someone did it, I was still curious if *I* can do it. I’m sure you *can* do it without carbs, or with carbs, or without calories, or while smoking cigars. If this is your first, then to what are you comparing it? Are you suggesting that just because you can do it then low carb must be OK for endurance athletes? I think you would have to run several half marathons using different diets in order to determine which one is best for that distance. Even then, there are too many variables that come in to play from one race to the next and all the training that takes place in between. JMTC My objective is to demonstrate that I can run a half marathon on LC. That would be pretty cool. I have no objective to run fast in that half marathon. I, obviously, realize that I cannot compete with athletes, because I am not an athlete… But, as a personal challenge type of goal, running 1/2 marathon on LC — and showing to myself and others that it is possible — would be cool.

OK, I understand your thinking. I’m saying that based purely on your training you can already do this regardless of what diet you’re on. However, most people (runners, joggers, athletes, non-athletes, whatever) would want to run a half marathon based on an *optimal* nutritional plan. If you are attempting to prove which diet is optimal for long distance running, then that’s different. But it sounds to me like you’re trying to prove that low carb is fine for training for and running a half marathon. If that’s the case, then check my sig. At any rate, good luck. Phil M. — "Learn from the mistakes of others.  You can’t live long enough to make them all yourself."

….. carbs.  You also might be interested in Stu Mittleman who ran 1000 miles in 11 days and set a then record.  He’s the author of the book "Slow Burn", which has some interesting stuff in it. Would that book be worth buying?

Yes, though all of Stu’s approach does not work for me I learned alot from his book. – Tony

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Yes… of course it’s possible. Why anyone would want to do it is another question. You need a minimum of 120 grams of carbs per day just to support normal brain and muscle function… let alone run a half marathon. But sure… it’s possible. Some guy in London ran a full marathon wearing an old fashioned diving suit complete with the huge brass bell on his head and lead boots. He did it… but I don’t imagine he or his body enjoyed it. Much like running on a low carb diet.

David, you have answered questions about low-carb several times on the running newsgroup and always you show that you know little about it. Please, there is enough crap on the internet. If you don’t have a clue about something you are not helping by giving an answer, and most of us can tell you don’t have any accurate or personal information. Donna

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Yes… of course it’s possible. Why anyone would want to do it is another question. You need a minimum of 120 grams of carbs per day just to support normal brain and muscle function… let alone run a half marathon. But sure… it’s possible. Some guy in London ran a full marathon wearing an old fashioned diving suit complete with the huge brass bell on his head and lead boots. He did it… but I don’t imagine he or his body enjoyed it. Much like running on a low carb diet. David, you have answered questions about low-carb several times on the running newsgroup and always you show that you know little about it.

Most runners aren’t experts on low carb diets for similar reasons that bodybuilders are not experts on low protein diets. Optimal nutrition for running does not involve consuming low amounts of carbs, and most runners are able to maintain a healthy weight without a restrictive diet, so the low carb fad simply doesn’t have a role to play in nutrition for runners. HTH, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes… of course it’s possible. Why anyone would want to do it is another question. You need a minimum of 120 grams of carbs per day just to support normal brain and muscle function… let alone run a half marathon. But sure… it’s possible. Some guy in London ran a full marathon wearing an old fashioned diving suit complete with the huge brass bell on his head and lead boots. He did it… but I don’t imagine he or his body enjoyed it. Much like running on a low carb diet. David, you have answered questions about low-carb several times on the running newsgroup and always you show that you know little about it. Most runners aren’t experts on low carb diets for similar reasons that bodybuilders are not experts on low protein diets. Optimal nutrition for running does not involve consuming low amounts of carbs, and most runners are able to maintain a healthy weight without a restrictive diet, so the low carb fad simply doesn’t have a role to play in nutrition for runners. Donovan, suppose that you have two runners, runner A and runner B. Runner A has an objective to win races and, therefore, builds his life accordingly. Runner B has an objective to be healthy, maintain good weight, etc, and runs recreationally, without wanting to win races. Would you think that these two persons could have different dieting requirements, and yet both would be running regularly?

I don’t see how "low carb" is a "requirement" except for what amounts to religious regions. For example, why do your dietary requirements prevent you from taking in carbs prior to a run ? Is it because there is a well reasoned argument against taking carbs prior to a long run, or is it in fact because you have succumbed to the dogma of the low carb cult ? If there is indeed a well reasoned argument against taking carbs prior to a run, then what is it ? Runners do not generally have trouble eating at maintenance, even in the presence of carbs, because they burn more calories than the average couch potato. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is an interesting article … and interesting recipes too http://www.fitnessandfreebies.com/lowcarb/exercise.html thanks, good article and in line with my experience. The article says moderate exercise.  "Keep in mind however, you should avoid high-intensity and high-duration exercise…"  For me, running is *always* high enough intensity that I need glycogen to help fuel it.  Walking is I used to need glycogen to run also! I would run and by the end of half an hour run I would be extremely tired. Now, though, I run for 1 hour 35 minutes and I was not tired, my legs were "as good as new". Again, I ran at low intensity. I think that it was a fascinating experiment (for me anyway). I will definitely run a 1/2 marathon, unfortunately, registration for it is now closed. My boss is going to run it, as well as the full marathon (which is also closed for new registrations). different.  For each person the intensity of running will be different; even slow jogging can be muscularly intense for some.  I tried low-carb for 6 months and had to cut my exercise workload a great deal.  For me it simply did not work.  Some people’s physiology may be better adapted to a stricter low-carb lifestyle. Thank you for sharing your relevant personal experience. Maybe I am somehow more adaptable to LC, it is hard to say, or maybe you like to run faster than I do. I always liked fat. I found I did not really lose weight on low-carb because I would eat too many fat calories. I do not lose weight either, fortunately, as I do not need to lose weight. But I am eating "to my heart’s content", which is extremely nice to me compared to being somewhat hungry on a moderate carb, limited calorie diet. I am greatly hoping that this diet will work for me in the long run. The people on the paleo email mailing list who hd been on this for a long time are all very happy and relaxed about their eating, which is great. (there i san obvious selection bias in that sample of people, but still, it is nice)

Yes actually I learned alot from trying the low-carb, and I leaned toward the paleo side of it as well.  As a result my diet is more balanced and more satisfying now too. Calorie control is the way to go – ask Lance armstrong. This year I’ve been eating a not-so-low carb diet, but it does have the shape of a TKD diet, particularly for the simple carbs that I enjoy – and my exercise is better than ever.  Where is LYLE McDONALD (author of CKD) when these discussions come up? Lyle hangs out in misc.fitness.weights…

Yes but Lyle also pokes his head in here sometimes… – Tony

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:::: Here is an interesting article … and interesting recipes too :::: :::: http://www.fitnessandfreebies.com/lowcarb/exercise.html ::: ::: thanks, good article and in line with my experience. ::: :: :: The article says moderate exercise.  "Keep in mind however, you :: should avoid high-intensity and high-duration exercise…"  For me, :: running is *always* high enough intensity that I need glycogen to :: help fuel it. That’s the way it is….the same is generally true for me when I do longish bike rides, then end up being both high intensity and high duration for me. ::  Walking is different.  For each person the intensity :: of running will be different; even slow jogging can be muscularly :: intense for some. Right.  When I do HIIT walking, it too can be intense. :: I tried low-carb for 6 months and had to cut my :: exercise workload a great deal.  For me it simply did not work. If you do a lot of high intensity exercise, you may have problems. TKD is an option. :: Some people’s physiology may be better adapted to a stricter :: low-carb lifestyle. That may indeed be true… :: :: I found I did not really lose weight on low-carb because I would eat :: too many fat calories. Limit calories. :: Calorie control is the way to go – ask Lance :: armstrong. Low carb makes it easier to control calories for many people. :: This year I’ve been eating a not-so-low carb diet, but it :: does have the shape of a TKD diet, particularly for the simple carbs :: that I enjoy – and my exercise is better than ever. There are a good number of us here who use either a TKD or a CKD. :: Where is LYLE :: McDONALD (author of CKD) when these discussions come up? He hangs out over in MWF.  However, we don’t need him for the simple stuff like this.

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The human brain functions quite nicely on ketones.

But apparently it makes you flacid, right flacidbull?

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It’s entirely incorrect that the human brain needs 120g of carbs a day just to function.  The ONLY time in the last few YEARS I’ve gotten that much carb

You just proved his point.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :: ::: Actually, I have been eating around 60 or so carbs per day (a WAG), ::: for 2 months, and would be delighted to take some IQ test to show ::: that my brain function has not become any more impaired than it was ::: at the beginning. I know what my IQ normally works out to, so, it ::: would be interesting to compare. ::: ::: As for the muscle function, I do 50 pushups and 12 pullups per set ::: every day (2 sets of pushups and 3 sets of pullups). If anything, ::: pushups became a bit easier on LC. :: :: Honeslty, I think you are dishonoring yourself and doing your body a :: disservice by eating low carb. Nonsense.

How the heck does one "dishonor oneself" by eating?  I’ve been eating low carb for a while now, and I have no problems lifting weights or hard bike riding.  I will up my carbs at times (especially on weeks where I ride my bike one day, lift weights including squats the next day, then ride 60+ miles the third day), but the amount of carbs you "need" is dramatically different than the common conception. — Bob in CT

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Here is an interesting article … and interesting recipes too http://www.fitnessandfreebies.com/lowcarb/exercise.html thanks, good article and in line with my experience.

The article says moderate exercise.  "Keep in mind however, you should avoid high-intensity and high-duration exercise…"  For me, running is *always* high enough intensity that I need glycogen to help fuel it.  Walking is different.  For each person the intensity of running will be different; even slow jogging can be muscularly intense for some.  I tried low-carb for 6 months and had to cut my exercise workload a great deal.  For me it simply did not work.  Some people’s physiology may be better adapted to a stricter low-carb lifestyle. I found I did not really lose weight on low-carb because I would eat too many fat calories.  Calorie control is the way to go – ask Lance armstrong. This year I’ve been eating a not-so-low carb diet, but it does have the shape of a TKD diet, particularly for the simple carbs that I enjoy – and my exercise is better than ever.  Where is LYLE McDONALD (author of CKD) when these discussions come up? – Tony

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….. Well, it would be a good experiment to show the people who think that running half marathon on LC is impossible, that they are mistaken. …… I agree and, probably, for healthy athletes, this diet is not optimal. But, LC does not preclude long distance running, as some might think.

Few think it is impossible.  In fact, there are many who claim that a restricted-carb diet is optimal for their long distance events.  An Atkins spokesman, Dr. Stuart Trager, does the Ironman Triathlon on restricted carbs.  You also might be interested in Stu Mittleman who ran 1000 miles in 11 days and set a then record.  He’s the author of the book "Slow Burn", which has some interesting stuff in it. I contend that while this approach might work for them, it does not work for the majority.  There is further research that needs to be done in this area of course.  The fat-burning system can be trained just like any other bodily system.  While general results can be found, each person, or type of person (e.g. mesomorph, endomorph, ectomorph, blood type A, B, O, AB etc.) will probably have differences in metabolism. – Tony

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:: ::: Why would you make such a statement without at least doing ::: preliminary research? :: :: I have. No, you have not. :: ::: That’s why I warn people who come to this newsgroup to take what is ::: said here with a grain of salt, cross check what is posted here, ::: make sure what is being stated is true. :: :: I agree. :: :: — :: Nova Scotia, Canada

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Being a crack smoker doesn’t preclude long distance running either… but it’s probably not recommended. — Nova Scotia, Canada

He speaks from experience.

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:: ::: Actually, I have been eating around 60 or so carbs per day (a WAG), ::: for 2 months, and would be delighted to take some IQ test to show ::: that my brain function has not become any more impaired than it was ::: at the beginning. I know what my IQ normally works out to, so, it ::: would be interesting to compare. ::: ::: As for the muscle function, I do 50 pushups and 12 pullups per set ::: every day (2 sets of pushups and 3 sets of pullups). If anything, ::: pushups became a bit easier on LC. :: :: Honeslty, I think you are dishonoring yourself and doing your body a :: disservice by eating low carb. Nonsense.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, I asked a question on alt.support.diet.low-carb and rec.running on whether running a *half marathon* on LC was possible. Haven’t these sort of experiments already been done? Phil M. I did some googling and did not find any, so, if you find something, please let me know! Also, even if someone did it, I was still curious if *I* can do it. I’m sure you *can* do it without carbs, or with carbs, or without calories, or while smoking cigars. If this is your first, then to what are you comparing it? Are you suggesting that just because you can do it then low carb must be OK for endurance athletes? I think you would have to run several half marathons using different diets in order to determine which one is best for that distance. Even then, there are too many variables that come in to play from one race to the next and all the training that takes place in between. JMTC My objective is to demonstrate that I can run a half marathon on LC. That would be pretty cool. I have no objective to run fast in that half marathon. I, obviously, realize that I cannot compete with athletes, because I am not an athlete… But, as a personal challenge type of goal, running 1/2 marathon on LC cool. OK, I understand your thinking. I’m saying that based purely on your training you can already do this regardless of what diet you’re on. Well, it would be a good experiment to show the people who think that running half marathon on LC is impossible, that they are mistaken. However, most people (runners, joggers, athletes, non-athletes, whatever) would want to run a half marathon based on an *optimal* nutritional plan. If you are attempting to prove which diet is optimal for long distance running, then that’s different. But it sounds to me like you’re trying to prove that low carb is fine for training for and running a half marathon. If that’s the case, then check my sig. At any rate, good luck. I agree and, probably, for healthy athletes, this diet is not optimal. But, LC does not preclude long distance running, as some might think.

Who’s saying you can’t run long distance with low carb? I think most would agree that you can, just not optimally. Phil M. — "Learn from the mistakes of others.  You can’t live long enough to make them all yourself."

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** Thanks for the tip Ozzie. Sorry for being incomplete in detail. The strain is in the back of the thighs (hamstrings). I am planing to buy a new pair of running shoes designed for running on trails. I hope they will help, but I would still appreciate any help. The strain is not very painful so I have been continuing my training so far without paying it any heed. Burak  *** Usenet.com – The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***                       http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download – 19 Seperate Servers – 90,000 groups – Uncensored

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Thanks for the tip Ozzie. Sorry for being incomplete in detail. The strain is in the back of the thighs (hamstrings). I am planing to buy a new pair of running shoes designed for running on trails. I hope they will help, but I would still appreciate any help. The strain is not very painful so I have been continuing my training so far without paying it any heed. Burak

 Issue: For some time, I have noticed that my knees begin to hurt when I begin stretching my hamstrings regularly. After about two or three days of regular, (and mild) stretching by doing toe touches ( non ballistic ) I begin to notice that my knees hurt when I run. Ozzie’s Response: While our hamstring get tight more from sitting than from running, the quads are more often than not the culprit. If you have a tendency to stand and lock you knees in hyperextension, that is one way of chronically tightening the quads. The tighter the quads, the shorter they become, and tilt the pelvis forward. From all the sitting we do, the hamstrings shorten because of our slouching posture in all these ergonomic chairs we have. We should be using energy rather than conserving it while we sit, by sitting properly. The end result is that we are tight and constricted. So if you are doing and overdoing hamstring stretches, the end result is that an overstretched muscle to protect itself shortens even more. So the tighter the hamstring becomes the more you try to stretch. I liked the idea of the doorjam stretch. Back in Feb ’94 Runner’s World, they an article on the work of Aaron Mattis. His belief is that you use the agonist muscle to stretch the antagonist muscle and then for 2 seconds and only 2 seconds at the end when the agonist can’t do any more, you help it. That way you don’t get into the stretch reflex. Another exercise I have people do is get a rolling pin and lay on it. Lay the quads across the rolling pin with most of the body weight on the forearms, front of the toes and the knees. You are laying on the floor with the pin under the quads. You gradually put more and more weight as you roll out the quads. You can push the left toe into the ground and that tightens the left quad. You relax the left as it lays on the pin and tighten the right quad. You can go back and forth and gradually you’ll feel the quads sink more and more into the pin. Do it lovingly and do not cause pain. Be consistent. For the hams, while sitting on the edge of your chair, place a tennis ball (and later a baseball) under one of the hamstrings. That leg with the tennis ball under it is resting straight with the heel on the floor. Rotate the leg side to side using the tennis ball as a form of accupressure. If you sit up straight, you’ll feel the hamstring even more because sitting up straight causes the pelvis to roll more to the front of the sitz bones and thereby elongating the hamstring making it tighter. Good luck on loosening your legs out of your pelvis…by elongating both the hams and the quads.  Also check out www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp   In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Maintainer – rec.running FAQ   http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/ Mindful Running:   http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

Response:

I liked the idea of the doorjam stretch. Back in Feb ’94 Runner’s World, they an article on the work of Aaron Mattis. His belief is that you use the agonist muscle to stretch the antagonist muscle and then for 2 seconds and only 2 seconds at the end when the agonist can’t do any more, you help it. That way you don’t get into the stretch reflex.

What is the doorjam stretch?

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Thanks for the great information! Any tips for really sore calves? My calves get so sore it hurts to run!

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[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] Thanks for the great information! Any tips for really sore calves? My calves get so sore it hurts to run!

BC, Check out http://www.mindfulness.com/of1.asp In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Maintainer – rec.running FAQ   http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/ Mindful Running:   http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

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**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** Hi, I have been doing various kinds of sports since my childhood (I am 33 now). And I wanted to specialize just a little bit and started training for triathlon. So I am now running 2 or 3 times a week. 1 of them interval, others endurance (at least 40 minutes). Besides this I am also swimming once a week, and cycling 2 or 3 times. I rest one day per week. I am running on dirt tracks, never on asphalt or concrete. But there is a strain in my thighs. Is it due to overtraining, or bad shoes (my running shoes are old, I will buy a new pair this week) or is it just a phase that I must go through? Thanks for any help. Burak  *** Usenet.com – The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***                       http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download – 19 Seperate Servers – 90,000 groups – Uncensored

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Burak, Before anyone can give you a good response, they would need to know where the strain is in  your thighs.   Quads:  Front of the thighs Hamstrings:   Back of the thighs Illiotibial area:  Side of the thigs Adductors:         Inside of the thighs Groin area:        Inside of the thigh near the groin area and so on. Look forward to a more specific identification of the thigh strain area In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Maintainer – rec.running FAQ   http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/ Mindful Running:   http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I have been doing various kinds of sports since my childhood (I am 33 now). And I wanted to specialize just a little bit and started training for triathlon. So I am now running 2 or 3 times a week. 1 of them interval, others endurance (at least 40 minutes). Besides this I am also swimming once a week, and cycling 2 or 3 times. I rest one day per week. I am running on dirt tracks, never on asphalt or concrete. But there is a strain in my thighs. Is it due to overtraining, or bad shoes (my running shoes are old, I will buy a new pair this week) or is it just a phase that I must go through? Thanks for any help. Burak  *** Usenet.com – The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***                       http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download – 19 Seperate Servers – 90,000 groups – Uncensored

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hihihi jt! we been thinking of yous since you posted about this factory job. funny quick story: when we used to work in a factory like that for ppl with develop disabilities we loved it but would get frustrated bec we were so ocd we wanted to do all of the repetative tasks like shirt folding and hole punching and all. when we would have to restrain ourselves from just getting totally absorbed in it and help out and oversee the clients. we also had to do a lot of the work, so this was hard. we just thought you might be able to imagine us struggling with being neurotic and also trying to be the good mental health worker at the same time. might make you smile. as for the feet and back, what they said, wise folk we have here, inserts (esp at heel), therapeutic levels of meds if you can tolerate them, and *stretch* at appropriate and frequent intervals. oh yeah, and proper posture, of course. you know the drill, basic back 101. if you need better hints, look up tips for keeping you back healthy in the office for a brush up. much affection and best of luck with the editing. embies – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long. it’s getting waaaaay bad. luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive. *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual. bog knows it needs it. ta jt

Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Response:

im assuming this is pain in feet? if not currently on any arthritis-type meds i suggest arthritis strength dosage of otc anti-inflammatory med of choice on regular schedule as if it was actually for arthritis. i had the same problem when i worked at walmart and doc said to keep med level up even when not working so that hopefully pain would not start as soon or last as long as it would if i waited until my feet hurt to take meds. after recent foot xrays i found out i actually *do* have arthritis in my feet….right in the middle where the arch should be but isnt :/ (8) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt

– |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan    light| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspacebe   enthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan     ight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted

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would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt — "To laugh often and much, to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children. To leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition. To know that even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded." – Author Unknown

Response:

Hee – sounds like playtime, embies – all that hole punching and stuff, kind of like sewing cards! Anyone remember those cards w/holes, and yarn or shoestrings for lacing? Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hihihi jt! we been thinking of yous since you posted about this factory job. funny quick story: when we used to work in a factory like that for ppl with develop disabilities we loved it but would get frustrated bec we were so ocd we wanted to do all of the repetative tasks like shirt folding and hole punching and all. when we would have to restrain ourselves from just getting totally absorbed in it and help out and oversee the clients. we also had to do a lot of the work, so this was hard. we just thought you might be able to imagine us struggling with being neurotic and also trying to be the good mental health worker at the same time. might make you smile. as for the feet and back, what they said, wise folk we have here, inserts (esp at heel), therapeutic levels of meds if you can tolerate them, and *stretch* at appropriate and frequent intervals. oh yeah, and proper posture, of course. you know the drill, basic back 101. if you need better hints, look up tips for keeping you back healthy in the office for a brush up. much affection and best of luck with the editing. embies would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long. it’s getting waaaaay bad. luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive. *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual. bog knows it needs it. ta jt Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

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We are wondering if they know how hard it is on the b*dy, and if there is some way to break things up for you? Would little rests during the day help at all, or is it the extent of it, no matter if broken up? Is the cumulative strain going to work? I am asking because I have anxieties about my own ability to tolerate a work situation, physically. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt

Response:

YES!!! havent thought of them in a loooong time.  can even remember making up designs like string art when i was supposedly ‘too old’ to be playing with them. too cool! thank you!! (8) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hee – sounds like playtime, embies – all that hole punching and stuff, kind of like sewing cards! Anyone remember those cards w/holes, and yarn or shoestrings for lacing? Beauty. hihihi jt! we been thinking of yous since you posted about this factory job. funny quick story: when we used to work in a factory like that for ppl with develop disabilities we loved it but would get frustrated bec we were so ocd we wanted to do all of the repetative tasks like shirt folding and hole punching and all. when we would have to restrain ourselves from just getting totally absorbed in it and help out and oversee the clients. we also had to do a lot of the work, so this was hard. we just thought you might be able to imagine us struggling with being neurotic and also trying to be the good mental health worker at the same time. might make you smile. as for the feet and back, what they said, wise folk we have here, inserts (esp at heel), therapeutic levels of meds if you can tolerate them, and *stretch* at appropriate and frequent intervals. oh yeah, and proper posture, of course. you know the drill, basic back 101. if you need better hints, look up tips for keeping you back healthy in the office for a brush up. much affection and best of luck with the editing. embies would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long. it’s getting waaaaay bad. luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive. *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual. bog knows it needs it. ta jt Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth Boorstin — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

– |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan    light| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspacebe   enthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan     ight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted

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responded in email.  didn’t realize you’d posted this, too. jt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – im assuming this is pain in feet? if not currently on any arthritis-type meds i suggest arthritis strength dosage of otc anti-inflammatory med of choice on regular schedule as if it was actually for arthritis. i had the same problem when i worked at walmart and doc said to keep med level up even when not working so that hopefully pain would not start as soon or last as long as it would if i waited until my feet hurt to take meds. after recent foot xrays i found out i actually *do* have arthritis in my feet….right in the middle where the arch should be but isnt :/ (8) would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt — |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan    light| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspacebe   enthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan     ight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted

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i emailed it too? huh… i responded to your response in email in email lol…i just realized that sentence sounds kinda weird. looks ok grammatically though…. (8) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – responded in email.  didn’t realize you’d posted this, too. jt im assuming this is pain in feet? if not currently on any arthritis-type meds i suggest arthritis strength dosage of otc anti-inflammatory med of choice on regular schedule as if it was actually for arthritis. i had the same problem when i worked at walmart and doc said to keep med level up even when not working so that hopefully pain would not start as soon or last as long as it would if i waited until my feet hurt to take meds. after recent foot xrays i found out i actually *do* have arthritis in my feet….right in the middle where the arch should be but isnt :/ (8) would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt — |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan    light| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspacebe   enthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan     ight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted

– |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan    light| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspacebe   enthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan     ight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted

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I’ve heard that New Balance running shoes (not "sneakers" or "walking shoes", but "running shoes") provide some of the best support and are often suggested by foot doctors when people have pain from being on their feet a lot or from certain types of floors.  You may also adjust once you have been working for awhile- jumping straight to full time can be a challenge- and lots of my staff say they are extremely fatigued for the first few weeks in our program, and then they get better.  You do also have the right to ask for "reasonable accomodation", and may be able to schedule more time sitting and helping individual clients while your body adjusts. Best wishes. -Nancy

Response:

I loved those when I was little. I used to ‘sew’ all the time. Only frustrating part was unsewing, as I recall. jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hee – sounds like playtime, embies – all that hole punching and stuff, kind of like sewing cards! Anyone remember those cards w/holes, and yarn or shoestrings for lacing? Beauty. hihihi jt! we been thinking of yous since you posted about this factory job. funny quick story: when we used to work in a factory like that for ppl with develop disabilities we loved it but would get frustrated bec we were so ocd we wanted to do all of the repetative tasks like shirt folding and hole punching and all. when we would have to restrain ourselves from just getting totally absorbed in it and help out and oversee the clients. we also had to do a lot of the work, so this was hard. we just thought you might be able to imagine us struggling with being neurotic and also trying to be the good mental health worker at the same time. might make you smile. as for the feet and back, what they said, wise folk we have here, inserts (esp at heel), therapeutic levels of meds if you can tolerate them, and *stretch* at appropriate and frequent intervals. oh yeah, and proper posture, of course. you know the drill, basic back 101. if you need better hints, look up tips for keeping you back healthy in the office for a brush up. much affection and best of luck with the editing. embies would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long. it’s getting waaaaay bad. luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive. *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual. bog knows it needs it. ta jt Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt

hi jt, i used to work as a nurses aide for 4 years on those kinds of floors.  my legs ached by the time i got home and i was young then.  what i found to work was to get the best shoes made for nurses.  better support and happier feet and body.   can you get to a really good shoe store, not your run of the mill mall store.  most towns have one that caters to medical quality shoes.  those stores will have what you need.   a good shoe really does help.  and support hose if you can wear it.   linda 2creus

Response:

yup. the sentence made sense, too. jt message – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i emailed it too? huh… i responded to your response in email in email lol…i just realized that sentence sounds kinda weird. looks ok grammatically though…. (8) responded in email.  didn’t realize you’d posted this, too. jt in im assuming this is pain in feet? if not currently on any arthritis-type meds i suggest arthritis strength dosage of otc anti-inflammatory med of choice on regular schedule as if it was actually for arthritis. i had the same problem when i worked at walmart and doc said to keep med level up even when not working so that hopefully pain would not start as soon or last as long as it would if i waited until my feet hurt to take meds. after recent foot xrays i found out i actually *do* have arthritis in my feet….right in the middle where the arch should be but isnt :/ (8) would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt — |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan    light| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspacebe   enthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan     ight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted — |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan    light| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspacebe   enthedarknessandthelig  | |  eshadowytimeandspaceb     nthedarknessandthelig  | |   shadowytimeandspac    w    hedarknessandtheli   | |t    adowytimeandsp    etwee    darknessandthe    t| |the    owytimeand    ebetweent    rknessandt    ght| |thesh    ytimea    acebetweenthe    nessan     ight| |theshado        dspacebetweenthedar        thelight| |theshadowytimeandspacebetweenthedarknessandthelight| Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted

Response:

i think it’s mostly the cumulative effect, plus i’m having my usual problem of getting enough food while at work.  i could be getting *some* food in the cafeteria, except i’m flat broke. mind you, if i hadn’t slept for 6 hours straight yesterday after getting home from work, i could have taught a voice lesson…that i’d rescheduled from monday evening because i was too exhausted on monday to teach it…and could have gotten $15 that i could use to buy food at work. this will get better. and i do get rests…there’s a 15 minute break 2 hrs into my day, then lunch 1.5 hrs later – and in theory my department gets an hour lunch, but i’m as likely to spend 15 minutes on the other side helping someone, then taking the 45 minutes the rest of the staff gets for lunch…that is, if i don’t have to spend half my lunch hour helping t01let the client in the wheelchair *sigh*.  she doesn’t require much assistance, but it still takes time. – and after lunch, it’s an hour and a half on the floor again, then i have 2 hrs to do paperwork. oh, tomorrow morning i get to do paperwork for the morning session, too.  :)  and on mondays, the clients go home early, so we’re free after lunch. i’ll definitely let my boss know that the work’s more physically taxing than i’d expected if this continues to be a problem.  heck, if this continues to be a problem, i’ll have to quit choir.  *sigh* but i think it’ll get better. *Fondness* jt

We are wondering if they know how hard it is on the b*dy, and if there is some way to break things up for you? Would little rests during the day help at all, or is it the extent of it, no matter if broken up? Is the cumulative strain going to work? I am asking because I have anxieties about my own ability to tolerate a work

situation, physically. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beauty. would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt

Response:

yuh i’m having the problem of trying to adjust my thoughts of "proper work attire" to the notion that i’m working *in a factory* most of the day…so…i have to look clean and neat, and can’t wear jeans n tees…but then, i don’t anyway. and part of what i need to be doing *is* letting the consumers do more of the work themselves.  i’m supposed to be encouraging their independence.  *rolls eyes at self* i’m trying to save the "reasonable accomodation" schtick to get a computer on my desk so i can type and print case notes.  my hand literally goes numb if i write for too long longhand.  well before that point, however, the "mouse knot" in my right shoulder scr*ams with p*in. plus, if i can use a computer for case notes, i can (a.) cut and paste, and (b.) disguise for longer the fact that my handwriting changes…  *sigh* still, though, i think i’ll adjust.  but i’m still tired, even though i slept 10 hrs of the last 14. jt

I’ve heard that New Balance running shoes (not "sneakers" or "walking shoes", but "running shoes") provide some of the best support and are often suggested by foot doctors when people have pain from being on their feet a lot or from certain types of floors.  You may also adjust once you

have been working for awhile- jumping straight to full time can be a challenge-

and lots of my staff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – say they are extremely fatigued for the first few weeks in our program, and then they get better.  You do also have the right to ask for "reasonable accomodation", and may be able to schedule more time sitting and helping individual clients while your body adjusts. Best wishes. -Nancy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long.  it’s getting waaaaay bad.  :( luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive.  *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual.  bog knows it needs it. ta jt hi jt, i used to work as a nurses aide for 4 years on those kinds of floors.  my legs ached by the time i got home and i was young then. what i found to work was to get the best shoes made for nurses.  better support and happier feet and body. can you get to a really good shoe store, not your run of the mill mall store.  most towns have one that caters to medical quality shoes.  those stores will have what you need.   a good shoe really does help.  and support hose if you can wear it. linda 2creus

i get my arch supports at such a shoe store, and they have my info on file.  so i’m planning on taking my first check up there.  might try sneakers at work today, but i can’t get it thru my head that it’d be ok to wear them to work… *sigh* jt

Response:

Thank you Nancy – this information may help me, too, when it comes time for me to try my wings. Um, feets. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard that New Balance running shoes (not "sneakers" or "walking shoes", but "running shoes") provide some of the best support and are often suggested by foot doctors when people have pain from being on their feet a lot or from certain types of floors.  You may also adjust once you have been working for awhile- jumping straight to full time can be a challenge- and lots of my staff say they are extremely fatigued for the first few weeks in our program, and then they get better.  You do also have the right to ask for "reasonable accomodation", and may be able to schedule more time sitting and helping individual clients while your body adjusts. Best wishes. -Nancy

Response:

I loved those when I was little. I used to ‘sew’ all the time. Only frustrating part was unsewing, as I recall. jane

According to fritz and kidlette, that’s my job Rainbow Colors (Jill) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hee – sounds like playtime, embies – all that hole punching and stuff, kind of like sewing cards! Anyone remember those cards w/holes, and yarn or shoestrings for lacing? Beauty. hihihi jt! we been thinking of yous since you posted about this factory job. funny quick story: when we used to work in a factory like that for ppl with develop disabilities we loved it but would get frustrated bec we were so ocd we wanted to do all of the repetative tasks like shirt folding and hole punching and all. when we would have to restrain ourselves from just getting totally absorbed in it and help out and oversee the clients. we also had to do a lot of the work, so this was hard. we just thought you might be able to imagine us struggling with being neurotic and also trying to be the good mental health worker at the same time. might make you smile. as for the feet and back, what they said, wise folk we have here, inserts (esp at heel), therapeutic levels of meds if you can tolerate them, and *stretch* at appropriate and frequent intervals. oh yeah, and proper posture, of course. you know the drill, basic back 101. if you need better hints, look up tips for keeping you back healthy in the office for a brush up. much affection and best of luck with the editing. embies would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long. it’s getting waaaaay bad. luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive. *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual. bog knows it needs it. ta jt Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

–      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi jt, i used to work as a nurses aide for 4 years on those kinds of floors.  my legs ached by the time i got home and i was young then. what i found to work was to get the best shoes made for nurses.  better support and happier feet and body. can you get to a really good shoe store, not your run of the mill mall store.  most towns have one that caters to medical quality shoes.  those stores will have what you need.   a good shoe really does help.  and support hose if you can wear it. linda 2creus i get my arch supports at such a shoe store, and they have my info on file.  so i’m planning on taking my first check up there.  might try sneakers at work today, but i can’t get it thru my head that it’d be ok to wear them to work… *sigh* jt

did they give you a dress code?  can you ask?  what do others wear?  i wouldn’t necessarily go by that though, unless you know it’s ok.  some people don’t pay attention to the rules and it may not wise to follow their lead.   it sounds like you have the right idea.  i’m wondering about the level of support sneaks might provide, though.  are they leather sided or canvas?   just from my experience, mind you, sneaks are ok for a while but they don’t provide the level of support i needed.  i needed sturdy shoes with good support in the arch.  i wish i could remember the names now.  naturalizer was ok.  there are others.  they don’t have to be nurses shoes either.  i think i might have given that impression.   in any case, i hope you find what works for you.  i’m a short but too big person now but back then i was still v*m*ting all the time so i was very thin.  but i still have larger bones and a tad wider feet with a high arch.   so normally 7 1/2 is my size but if i can’t get wides, than i have to go up to 8′s which really don’t fit. (blisters, yuck)  5 or 6 years ago, when i walked the floors of a w*lmart superstore’s night shift, i was hurtin with my sneakies or flats.  (very busy, understaffed and hard floors, eek!) not to mention my b.pressure was thru the roof.  i should have listened to my own advice, that time.  :-/ hope you take care, linda 2creus

Response:

turns out it’s gonna be the 2nd check.  *sigh*  :) first check’s keeping the cable turned on, putting gas in the car, paying my mastercard, and getting groceries. *shrugs* …and buying *something* for the kids. for now, i think it only got so bad because of the specific shoes i wore that day.  i won’t wear them again.  ever.  :) thx.  i feel like i’m in good hands at that shoe store, so i’m not gonna worry too much about it. jt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi jt, i used to work as a nurses aide for 4 years on those kinds of floors.  my legs ached by the time i got home and i was young then. what i found to work was to get the best shoes made for nurses. better support and happier feet and body. can you get to a really good shoe store, not your run of the mill mall store.  most towns have one that caters to medical quality shoes.  those stores will have what you need.   a good shoe really does help.  and support hose if you can wear it. linda 2creus i get my arch supports at such a shoe store, and they have my info on file.  so i’m planning on taking my first check up there.  might try sneakers at work today, but i can’t get it thru my head that it’d be ok to wear them to work… *sigh* jt did they give you a dress code?  can you ask?  what do others wear?  i wouldn’t necessarily go by that though, unless you know it’s ok.  some people don’t pay attention to the rules and it may not

wise to follow their lead. it sounds like you have the right idea.  i’m wondering about the level of support sneaks might provide, though.  are they leather sided or canvas? just from my experience, mind you, sneaks are ok for a

while but they don’t provide the level of support i needed.  i needed sturdy shoes with good support in the arch.  i wish i could remember the names now.  naturalizer was ok.  there are others.  they don’t have to be nurses shoes either.  i think i might have given that impression. in any case, i hope you find what works for you.  i’m a short but too big person now but back then i was still v*m*ting all the time so i was very thin.  but i still have larger bones and a tad wider feet with a high arch. so normally 7 1/2 is my size but if i can’t get wides,

than i have to go up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to 8′s which really don’t fit. (blisters, yuck)  5 or 6 years ago, when i walked the floors of a w*lmart superstore’s night shift, i was hurtin with my sneakies or flats.  (very busy, understaffed and hard floors, eek!) not to mention my b.pressure was thru the roof.  i should have listened to my own advice, that time.  :-/ hope you take care, linda 2creus

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – turns out it’s gonna be the 2nd check.  *sigh*  :) first check’s keeping the cable turned on, putting gas in the car, paying my mastercard, and getting groceries. *shrugs* …and buying *something* for the kids. for now, i think it only got so bad because of the specific shoes i wore that day.  i won’t wear them again.  ever.  :) thx.  i feel like i’m in good hands at that shoe store, so i’m not gonna worry too much about it. jt

ok.  i hope it gets better for you. i know all too well about living pay check to pay check.  selling of things so we could eat.   lots of wishes for things to get better, linda 2creus

Response:

My rockports are great. The brown fuzzy suede ones have the best last for walking all day. They are built differently from their other shoes. I learned this fact from someone when I was looking at them. I know it ’cause my brown ones feel much better than my others do after a long time. jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi jt, i used to work as a nurses aide for 4 years on those kinds  of floors.  my legs ached by the time i got home and i was young then.  what i found to work was to get the best shoes made for nurses.  better  support and happier feet and body. can you get to a really good shoe store, not your run of  the mill mall store.  most towns have one that caters to medical quality  shoes.  those stores will have what you need.   a good shoe really does  help.  and support hose if you can wear it. linda 2creus i get my arch supports at such a shoe store, and they have my info on file.  so i’m planning on taking my first check up there.  might try sneakers at work today, but i can’t get it thru my head that it’d be ok to wear them to work… *sigh* jt did they give you a dress code?  can you ask?  what do others wear?  i wouldn’t necessarily go by that though, unless you know it’s ok.  some people don’t pay attention to the rules and it may not wise to follow their lead.   it sounds like you have the right idea.  i’m wondering about the level of support sneaks might provide, though.  are they leather sided or canvas?   just from my experience, mind you, sneaks are ok for a while but they don’t provide the level of support i needed.  i needed sturdy shoes with good support in the arch.  i wish i could remember the names now.  naturalizer was ok.  there are others.  they don’t have to be nurses shoes either.  i think i might have given that impression.   in any case, i hope you find what works for you.  i’m a short but too big person now but back then i was still v*m*ting all the time so i was very thin.  but i still have larger bones and a tad wider feet with a high arch.   so normally 7 1/2 is my size but if i can’t get wides, than i have to go up to 8′s which really don’t fit. (blisters, yuck)  5 or 6 years ago, when i walked the floors of a w*lmart superstore’s night shift, i was hurtin with my sneakies or flats.  (very busy, understaffed and hard floors, eek!) not to mention my b.pressure was thru the roof.  i should have listened to my own advice, that time.  :-/ hope you take care, linda 2creus

Response:

My foot guy recommends New Balance or Saucony running shoes. I find each kind very good. They accommodate my orthotics well, too. jane whose legs don’t hurt any more! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard that New Balance running shoes (not "sneakers" or "walking shoes", but "running shoes") provide some of the best support and are often suggested by foot doctors when people have pain from being on their feet a lot or from certain types of floors.  You may also adjust once you have been working for awhile- jumping straight to full time can be a challenge- and lots of my staff say they are extremely fatigued for the first few weeks in our program, and then they get better.  You do also have the right to ask for "reasonable accomodation", and may be able to schedule more time sitting and helping individual clients while your body adjusts. Best wishes. -Nancy

Response:

Best wishes with this, Beauty. -Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thank you Nancy – this information may help me, too, when it comes time for me to try my wings. Um, feets. Beauty.

Response:

Yes, of course jeans and tees would not be appropriate to wear, but running shoes or other types of high-support shoes are appropriate given the kind of work you are doing, and it can make a huge difference. I think, as you say, this probably will get much better both as your body adjusts and as you adjust to being able to encourage more independence and not jumping in to help as much. Keep in mind that reasonable accomodation means whatever you need that would not cost the company too much or prevent you from performing essential functions of your job, so it is ok to need more than one thing. I hope you get the computer soon- that sounds like it would be a big help. Take care. -Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -yuh i’m having the problem of trying to adjust my thoughts of "proper work attire" to the notion that i’m working *in a factory* most of the day…so…i have to look clean and neat, and can’t wear jeans n tees…but then, i don’t anyway. and part of what i need to be doing *is* letting the consumers do more of the work themselves.  i’m supposed to be encouraging their independence.  *rolls eyes at self* i’m trying to save the "reasonable accomodation" schtick to get a computer on my desk so i can type and print case notes.  my hand literally goes numb if i write for too long longhand.  well before that point, however, the "mouse knot" in my right shoulder scr*ams with p*in. plus, if i can use a computer for case notes, i can (a.) cut and paste, and (b.) disguise for longer the fact that my handwriting changes…  *sigh* still, though, i think i’ll adjust.  but i’m still tired, even though i slept 10 hrs of the last 14. jt I’ve heard that New Balance running shoes (not "sneakers" or "walking shoes", but "running shoes") provide some of the best support and are often suggested by foot doctors when people have pain from being on their feet a lot or from certain types of floors.  You may also adjust once you have been working for awhile- jumping straight to full time can be a challenge- and lots of my staff say they are extremely fatigued for the first few weeks in our program, and then they get better.  You do also have the right to ask for "reasonable accomodation", and may be able to schedule more time sitting and helping individual clients while your body adjusts. Best wishes. -Nancy

Response:

Smart kiddddses!!! :O) jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I loved those when I was little. I used to ‘sew’ all the time. Only frustrating part was unsewing, as I recall. jane According to fritz and kidlette, that’s my job Rainbow Colors (Jill) Hee – sounds like playtime, embies – all that hole punching and stuff, kind of like sewing cards! Anyone remember those cards w/holes, and yarn or shoestrings for lacing? Beauty. hihihi jt! we been thinking of yous since you posted about this factory job. funny quick story: when we used to work in a factory like that for ppl with develop disabilities we loved it but would get frustrated bec we were so ocd we wanted to do all of the repetative tasks like shirt folding and hole punching and all. when we would have to restrain ourselves from just getting totally absorbed in it and help out and oversee the clients. we also had to do a lot of the work, so this was hard. we just thought you might be able to imagine us struggling with being neurotic and also trying to be the good mental health worker at the same time. might make you smile. as for the feet and back, what they said, wise folk we have here, inserts (esp at heel), therapeutic levels of meds if you can tolerate them, and *stretch* at appropriate and frequent intervals. oh yeah, and proper posture, of course. you know the drill, basic back 101. if you need better hints, look up tips for keeping you back healthy in the office for a brush up. much affection and best of luck with the editing. embies would be happy to post for-real, but i need sleep more than anything else. need suggestions for minimizing ag*nizing pa*n from walking around on concrete factory floors all day long. it’s getting waaaaay bad. luckily i’m getting bored out of my skull tomorrow at work at an all day orientation…which is only *half* of the orientation i’m to receive. *sigh* i plan to spend most of the time copy-editing their orientation manual. bog knows it needs it. ta jt Be bold in what you stand for and careful of what you fall for. ~ Ruth — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Response:

*For those who can’t read french, there is a statement from the state health institute two 2 lots (n

not sure what you are saying, because what I was saying was that the training was related to goals and not to the discipline (Maybe *I* wasn’t explicit enough)…

ooops, got it. I hadn’t interpreted the more general nature of your statement. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it’s also why swimmers can do intensity stuff daily, no impact forces and relatively low efficiency in the water may prevent CNS overtraining with constant speed/high intensity work. still, I wonder how much more muscle damage occurs as duration increases with running, assuming you’ve built up to it…. As I build up my long runs to 5 to 8 hours I don’t find my muscle damage is increased as the time increases. If that was the case my recovery would not take a day or two but a week or two or end up in a fetal position.  The secret is to build the time within your recovery abilities. Unfortunately measuring one’s recovery ability takes great patience, years and experimentation.

As one attempting to learn to go longer consistently in training this reads very true.  Knowing your recovery ability is the most important and something I’ve yet to master by far. – Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –DougF

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – not sure what you are saying, because what I was saying was that the training was related to goals and not to the discipline (Maybe *I* wasn’t explicit enough)…that there are a bunch of pro-cross country mountain bikers that do two a days because they feel they can, since this type of race is always 2-3 hours long.  They aren’t limited in time to train, They have dedicated themselves to the sport to the degree that they have moved and live an a climate that is favorable for training (Tuscon, Durango, southern California) so they don’t have to drive to a trail head.  Ultra mtb (12hr races, 24 hr races, and beyond) and marathon mtb (~100km) are still emerging sports, so when I say "pro" I’m talking about the traditional NORBA and UCI ($) sanctioned races.  The ultra guys train more like pro road riders (by that I mean UCI ($) pro) in doing the majority of their training on long rides, most of the time on the road (because of the beating that riding off road will put on the body and the bikes).  The "pioneers" of these races are ex-UCI pros that have slowed down with age and still love riding and racing, or guys that have completely burned out on the competitiveness of the "circuits". To throw a spanner in the works, by the way, one of the best 24 hour mtb racers trains almost exclusively with 3 hour "intense" rides.  He says that when he gets into the grove for 24 hour pace, everything feels slow and easy.  I think this has to do with the level of competition in fringe sports, that he can beat lots of guys that theoretically are training smarter.  Not so when you look at the traditional euro pro road and mtb races.  The level of competion is thick, specialization is key, and if you aren’t doing everything to maximize your strong points, while keeping your weaknesses in check, you’ll be off the back and out of a contract ($$$).

There are also drastic differences between mtb and road racing. Road racing (excepting pure TT) relies heavily on team tactics and strategy as much as fitness.  Add in the additional factor of stage races (where winning the overall may not mean winning all or even any individual stages) and that’s another factor.  MTB is more of an individual sport, closer to an individual time trial with a lot of technical/skill requirements.  Running appears to have some team tactics (rabbits and such) but no stage races that I’m aware of.  The benefits of drafting are far less (compared to cycling where a rider can save oodles of energy letting a teammate pull him).  Many cyclists on the team are there to support the rider that actually has a chance of winning, I don’t know that this is the case in running and I’m sure it’s not hte case in MTB. Lyle

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Following these thoughts (long workouts make it impractical to do multiple workouts in 1 day and duration of cycling road races being longer than mt bike races), wouldn’t predominance of 2/day vs 1 longer/day workout be more related to goals and duration of events and maybe prep time (driving, changing, warmup, etc), rather than discipline.

    To be sure, some doing long events will also do some short   intensive workouts, but probably only as their recovery from the long   workouts allows. I’m suggesting this because where I am (Alaska) we have   winter races (not any that I plan on doing) of 100, 350, and 1100 miles   in length (14 hrs to a couple weeks) where you can run, xc ski, or mt   bike, but have to maintain whatever weapon you started with. So the   sport doesn’t dictate the length.     Of course if people cross-train or doing multi-sport, then they are more   likely to do 2/day also.     Just a different perspective.     Dot   not sure what you are saying, because what I was saying was that the training was related to goals and not to the discipline (Maybe *I* wasn’t explicit enough)…that there are a bunch of pro-cross country mountain bikers that do two a days because they feel they can, since this type of race is always 2-3 hours long.  They aren’t limited in time to train, They have dedicated themselves to the sport to the degree that they have moved and live an a climate that is favorable for training (Tuscon, Durango, southern California) so they don’t have to drive to a trail head.  Ultra mtb (12hr races, 24 hr races, and beyond) and marathon mtb (~100km) are still emerging sports, so when I say "pro" I’m talking about the traditional NORBA and UCI ($) sanctioned races.  The ultra guys train more like pro road riders (by that I mean UCI ($) pro) in doing the majority of their training on long rides, most of the time on the road (because of the beating that riding off road will put on the body and the bikes).  The "pioneers" of these races are ex-UCI pros that have slowed down with age and still love riding and racing, or guys that have completely burned out on the competitiveness of the "circuits". To throw a spanner in the works, by the way, one of the best 24 hour mtb racers trains almost exclusively with 3 hour "intense" rides.  He says that when he gets into the grove for 24 hour pace, everything feels slow and easy.  I think this has to do with the level of competition in fringe sports, that he can beat lots of guys that theoretically are training smarter.  Not so when you look at the traditional euro pro road and mtb races.  The level of competion is thick, specialization is key, and if you aren’t doing everything to maximize your strong points, while keeping your weaknesses in check, you’ll be off the back and out of a contract ($$$).

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I think it’s also why swimmers can do intensity stuff daily, no impact forces and relatively low efficiency in the water may prevent CNS overtraining with constant speed/high intensity work. still, I wonder how much more muscle damage occurs as duration increases with running, assuming you’ve built up to it….

As I build up my long runs to 5 to 8 hours I don’t find my muscle damage is increased as the time increases. If that was the case my recovery would not take a day or two but a week or two or end up in a fetal position.  The secret is to build the time within your recovery abilities. Unfortunately measuring one’s recovery ability takes great patience, years and experimentation. -DougF

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all i wanna know is, will ya wrap em around my head?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick…and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, but apparently i have a body type where i do bulk up and build -a lot- of muscle.  i know it’s beneficial to lift for many reasons, but i’ve been really trying to get more lean-looking, so i quit lifting about a month ago and upped the running and x-training cardio.. i’ve also followed a pretty strict low carb diet to try to lose 10-15 pounds for the past couple months.  i’ve lost some inches and about 7 pounds but my legs still look very big. could a high intake of protein be responsible for keeping my legs bulked up?  any suggestions would be appreciated.  thx

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hey all.. thanks for the replies.. looks like most of you are saying to eat more of a balanced diet, keep running, and be patient…  i don’t think i’ll be going back to doing weights though, either…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick…and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, but apparently i have a body type where i do bulk up and build -a lot- of muscle.  i know it’s beneficial to lift for many reasons, but i’ve been really trying to get more lean-looking, so i quit lifting about a month ago and upped the running and x-training cardio.. i’ve also followed a pretty strict low carb diet to try to lose 10-15 pounds for the past couple months.  i’ve lost some inches and about 7 pounds but my legs still look very big. could a high intake of protein be responsible for keeping my legs bulked up?  any suggestions would be appreciated.  thx

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or what about the differences in duration of endurance work between say cycling and running. A long run for a runnr might be 2 hours, might push to 3 under some circumstances.  A cyclist may go 1-6 hours. … perhaps the reason that cyclists don’t do 2/days is simply one of time.  To get the equivalent of a 45-60 minute morning run (in addition to the second run) would mean 1.5 to 2-3 hours on the bike.   Then an additional 5-6 later in the day.  Would leave no time for anything else. Road racers (professional or nearly) tend to do such long rides it isn’t possible because of the length of the most prestigious races.  They sandwich their interval stuff into the rides. A lot of pro mountain bikers on the other hand do two a days, since the length of their races is 2-3 hours, they take the liberty of having a big lunch after a morning ride, a long nap and going on an evening ride when the temps cool down.

Following these thoughts (long workouts make it impractical to do multiple workouts in 1 day and duration of cycling road races being longer than mt bike races), wouldn’t predominance of 2/day vs 1 longer/day workout be more related to goals and duration of events and maybe prep time (driving, changing, warmup, etc), rather than discipline. To be sure, some doing long events will also do some short intensive workouts, but probably only as their recovery from the long workouts allows. I’m suggesting this because where I am (Alaska) we have winter races (not any that I plan on doing) of 100, 350, and 1100 miles in length (14 hrs to a couple weeks) where you can run, xc ski, or mt bike, but have to maintain whatever weapon you started with. So the sport doesn’t dictate the length. Of course if people cross-train or doing multi-sport, then they are more likely to do 2/day also. Just a different perspective. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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Or what about the differences in duration of endurance work between say cycling and running. A long run for a runnr might be 2 hours, might push to 3 under some circumstances.  

Besides marathon guys who are training slower than 6 minutes per mile (e.g. non-elite marathoners), and ultramarathon runners, there are few who go beyond 2 hrs. I suspect muscle damage may have something to do with it. Cycling burns the hell out of your legs while you’re doing it, but you get no eccentric work and not nearly as much DOMS (I get almost none after a tough ride even when I’m completely detrained). Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – perhaps the reason that cyclists don’t do 2/days is simply one of time.  To get the equivalent of a 45-60 minute morning run (in addition to the second run) would mean 1.5 to 2-3 hours on the bike.   Then an additional 5-6 later in the day.  Would leave no time for anything else. On and on it goes. Lyle Road racers (professional or nearly) tend to do such long rides it isn’t possible because of the length of the most prestigious races.  They sandwich their interval stuff into the rides.

Uhh, didn’t I suggest that in the one unsnipped section I left above? Still, if adding a 2 hour spin in the morning improved performance, I bet pros would find a way to get it in.  Go 6-8am, 2 hour spin to get things going gene expression wise.  Eat a couple of meals at 8, long ride from 12-1pm on or even later depending on the length.  Possibly. A lot of pro mountain bikers on the other hand do two a days, since the length of their races is 2-3 hours, they take the liberty of having a big lunch after a morning ride, a long nap and going on an evening ride when the temps cool down.  toddwells.net is one guy that talks about doing two a days a lot.  He’s one of those guys that doesn’t need to know how or why, so you won’t see any physiology on his website.

Didn’t know that, probably ought to delve into mountain bike training a bit more. Thanks for the heads up. Lyle

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Or what about the differences in duration of endurance work between say cycling and running. A long run for a runnr might be 2 hours, might push to 3 under some circumstances.   Besides marathon guys who are training slower than 6 minutes per mile (e.g. non-elite marathoners), and ultramarathon runners, there are few who go beyond 2 hrs. I suspect muscle damage may have something to do with it. Cycling burns the hell out of your legs while you’re doing it, but you get no eccentric work and not nearly as much DOMS (I get almost none after a tough ride even when I’m completely detrained).

Yes, and this is certainly another difference between the sports. I think it’s also why swimmers can do intensity stuff daily, no impact forces and relatively low efficiency in the water may prevent CNS overtraining with constant speed/high intensity work. still, I wonder how much more muscle damage occurs as duration increases with running, assuming you’ve built up to it…. Lyle

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Didn’t know that, probably ought to delve into mountain bike training a bit more.

Riding the roads on a skinny tire bike is like running the roads, boring. Besides, you get a much better workout mile for mile even if you pedal the Mountain bike on the roads – lots heavier, more work, etc.. If your looking for building running endurance and staying injury free, try making one of the two a days the MB. -DougF

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] Topic switch — what’s with the recent interest in running anyway ? I mean, you’ve always followed the research, but it appears that recently you’re taking it up a level by purchasing almost every running book on the market, and hanging out in the running newsgroup. Are you running these days, or are you just gravitating towards weenie forums as the endurance work kicks in ? Running?  Me.  Hell no, only when chased. I’m simply very interested in endurance stuff right now (I tend to go through phases), looking at both similarities and differences between the training of different endurance sports interests me on both a research related and a personal level. For example, two a days/the morning run. Runners routinely do them, I recall seeing it mentioned that it has turned good runners into great runners (perhaps a hyperbolic statement). Swimmers have trained twice daily for years.  Their workouts are more interval/intensity based. Based on recent research on gene expression/adaptation, I think it makes a lot of sense to do it this way.  in short, you’re keeping the genes involved in adaptation upregulated chronically which, given sufficient recovery, should generate better adaptation and performance. Cyclists never do this as far as I can tell, at least I’ve never seen it recommended or discussed.  I don’t think Xcountry skiiers or rowers do either but I have found very little on their training so far. I find this interesting.  I wonder why this is the case. Or what about the differences in duration of endurance work between say cycling and running. A long run for a runnr might be 2 hours, might push to 3 under some circumstances.  A cyclist may go 1-6 hours. I think this is easy to explain: at a given speed running burns on average, 2-3 times the calories as cycling over the same time frame.  In that energy utilization (invovled with biochemical signalling pathways via something called AMPk) is a key aspect of adaptation, that would imply that a running workout of 20-60 minute equates to 1-3 hours of cycling,  1-2 hours running equates to 2-6 hours of cycling or so.  This is consistent with generally suggested norms. perhaps the reason that cyclists don’t do 2/days is simply one of time.  To get the equivalent of a 45-60 minute morning run (in addition to the second run) would mean 1.5 to 2-3 hours on the bike.  Then an additional 5-6 later in the day.  Would leave no time for anything else. On and on it goes. Lyle

Road racers (professional or nearly) tend to do such long rides it isn’t possible because of the length of the most prestigious races.  They sandwich their interval stuff into the rides. A lot of pro mountain bikers on the other hand do two a days, since the length of their races is 2-3 hours, they take the liberty of having a big lunch after a morning ride, a long nap and going on an evening ride when the temps cool down.  toddwells.net is one guy that talks about doing two a days a lot.  He’s one of those guys that doesn’t need to know how or why, so you won’t see any physiology on his website.

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[snip] Topic switch — what’s with the recent interest in running anyway ? I mean, you’ve always followed the research, but it appears that recently you’re taking it up a level by purchasing almost every running book on the market, and hanging out in the running newsgroup. Are you running these days, or are you just gravitating towards weenie forums as the endurance work kicks in ?

Running?  Me.  Hell no, only when chased. I’m simply very interested in endurance stuff right now (I tend to go through phases), looking at both similarities and differences between the training of different endurance sports interests me on both a research related and a personal level. For example, two a days/the morning run. Runners routinely do them, I recall seeing it mentioned that it has turned good runners into great runners (perhaps a hyperbolic statement). Swimmers have trained twice daily for years.  Their workouts are more interval/intensity based. Based on recent research on gene expression/adaptation, I think it makes a lot of sense to do it this way.  in short, you’re keeping the genes involved in adaptation upregulated chronically which, given sufficient recovery, should generate better adaptation and performance. Cyclists never do this as far as I can tell, at least I’ve never seen it recommended or discussed.  I don’t think Xcountry skiiers or rowers do either but I have found very little on their training so far. I find this interesting.  I wonder why this is the case. Or what about the differences in duration of endurance work between say cycling and running. A long run for a runnr might be 2 hours, might push to 3 under some circumstances.  A cyclist may go 1-6 hours. I think this is easy to explain: at a given speed running burns on average, 2-3 times the calories as cycling over the same time frame.  In that energy utilization (invovled with biochemical signalling pathways via something called AMPk) is a key aspect of adaptation, that would imply that a running workout of 20-60 minute equates to 1-3 hours of cycling,  1-2 hours running equates to 2-6 hours of cycling or so.  This is consistent with generally suggested norms. perhaps the reason that cyclists don’t do 2/days is simply one of time.   To get the equivalent of a 45-60 minute morning run (in addition to the second run) would mean 1.5 to 2-3 hours on the bike.  Then an additional 5-6 later in the day.  Would leave no time for anything else. On and on it goes. Lyle

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[snip] Topic switch — what’s with the recent interest in running anyway ? I mean, you’ve always followed the research, but it appears that recently you’re taking it up a level by purchasing almost every running book on the market, and hanging out in the running newsgroup. Are you running these days, or are you just gravitating towards weenie forums as the endurance work kicks in ? Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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Viewpoints are relative. The number two complaint in weightlifting message groups after pecs, is skinny calves.  Many guys retain "bird legs" dont matter what they do.  Someone is going to appreciate large-legged looks.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick Nope, sounds very logical. …and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, That is a whole bunch of B*LL SH*T brought on by the pop "women’s magazine" press.

Nonsense. It does not take in all the genetic diversity in the female population.

NO, merely the mast vajority. Go into a gym, see how many MEN are trying to bulk up and failing. And you think the majority of women can do it. Not even close. A small percentage? Yes. The majority.  Absolutely not. In that popular magazines adress the majority, well….their comments about a woman’s likelihood of bulking up are on the money. Lyle

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, That is a whole bunch of B*LL SH*T brought on by the pop "women’s magazine" press. Nonsense. It does not take in all the genetic diversity in the female population. NO, merely the mast vajority. Go into a gym, see how many MEN are trying to bulk up and failing. And you think the majority of women can do it. Not even close. A small percentage? Yes. The majority.  Absolutely not. In that popular magazines adress the majority, well….their comments about a woman’s likelihood of bulking up are on the money.

Which begs the question, just how big are her legs anyways? [mfw]jpegs, please![/mfw] Neil

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yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick…and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, but apparently i have a body type where i do bulk up and build -a lot- of muscle.  i know it’s beneficial to lift for many reasons, but i’ve been really trying to get more lean-looking, so i quit lifting about a month ago and upped the running and x-training cardio.. i’ve also followed a pretty strict low carb diet to try to lose 10-15 pounds for the past couple months.  i’ve lost some inches and about 7 pounds but my legs still look very big. could a high intake of protein be responsible for keeping my legs bulked up?  any suggestions would be appreciated. thx

I would expect your body to adapt to the demands put on it.  Run more to look more like a runner, lift more to …  A month of running is just a start.  Focus on fitness rather than the profile. Have you solicited some informed opinions about your appearance?  The twiggy prototype puts pressure on women to conform rather than express their own qualities and has spawned an eating disorder epidemic.  RW magazine for June has an article about a successful trail runner, wife, mother, etc., who feels she can go forever because she has big strong legs.  From the pictures, she does not look bulky in any way.  I bet she consumes enormous amounts of carbohydrates. Why not continue a weekly maintenance lift session?  I did meet one young woman who had this concern and it was likely valid.  However, she let herself go and became fat.  Watch out for the fear of bulk hysteria, which most of the time is ignorance and an excuse to take it easy.

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yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick

Nope, sounds very logical. …and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training,

That is a whole bunch of B*LL SH*T brought on by the pop "women’s magazine" press. It does not take in all the genetic diversity in the female population.  Check out this article about the amazing muscular baby and note that his mom is also very muscular. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/science/24muscle.html?ex=1088654400… I lifted for three semesters in high school.  By the end of my third semester, doing the same workouts/reps as every other girl & guy in the class, I was phenomenally stronger than other girl (including girls of similar weight).  You don’t b.p. 185 and squat 255 without gaining some muscle mass.  I think it’s a genetic thing in my case and it may be similar in yours.  but apparently i have a body type where i do bulk up and build -a lot- of muscle.

Me too!  Quite easily.  When I stopped swimming to become an ultimate (frisbee) player/runner type, my very lean legs got bulkier and my very bulky shoulders got leaner.   i know it’s beneficial to lift for many reasons, but i’ve been really trying to get more lean-looking, so i quit lifting about a month ago and upped the running and x-training cardio..

Actually, any weight bearing exercise will give you many of the same benefits of lifting.  Fortunately, running is weight bearing.  i’ve also followed a pretty strict low carb diet to try to lose 10-15 pounds for the past couple months.  i’ve lost some inches and about 7 pounds but my legs still look very big. could a high intake of protein be responsible for keeping my legs bulked up?

When I trained as a collegiate swimmer, I found that hard workouts made me crave protein.  When I supplied my body with that protein, my body did a great job of building/rebuilding my muscles.  Lots of protein is great for muscle building.  If you don’t want to build as much eat a more balanced diet. I would advocate a fairly balanced diet to lose weight.  I’m a bigger fan of protein than some folks on this forum, but I also don’t run as long as them.  I go for a roughly 30% protein, 30% fat, 40% carb diet.  Of course, what you use to make up all those percentages is what really matters!   any suggestions would be appreciated. thx I would expect your body to adapt to the demands put on it.  Run more to look more like a runner, lift more to …  A month of running is just a start.  Focus on fitness rather than the profile.

I agree with this statement as well.  And I think that your body will change shape but it’s not an overnight thing. My other piece on this is that some activities give a more lean shape.  Yoga comes to mind because it is so focused on lengthening muscles and stretching. Also, swimming and other upper body type activities will help you to build stronger shoulders/delts/pecs and can give you a more balanced look.  This may not make your legs actually leaner, but will keep your body more proportional. Finally, if you are the muscle-building type, whatever muscles you use will be "bulkier".  So use all your muscles (including core muscles like abs, etc.) throughout the week.  This will help keep any one area from being too out of proportion. If you are healthy and proud of your body, screw the image.  You have something far more valuable – a functioning body able to take on everything you throw at it. Why not continue a weekly maintenance lift session?

Why continue?  There are other activities that will give the same benefits of weight bearing exercise without focusing on just specifically building muscle.  Basically, if you are under 40, not losing muscle, and not prone to osteoperosis, I don’t think any woman needs to lift unless she likes the effects on her appearance/enjoys the activitiy.   I did meet one young woman who had this concern and it was likely valid.  However, she let herself go and became fat.

Yeah because that’s a great solution.  = )   Watch out for the fear of bulk hysteria, which most of the time is ignorance and an excuse to take it easy.

Hopefully Meri isn’t one of these as she seems commited to keeping active.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick…and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, but apparently i have a body type where i do bulk up and build -a lot- of muscle.  i know it’s beneficial to lift for many reasons, but i’ve been really trying to get more lean-looking, so i quit lifting about a month ago and upped the running and x-training cardio.. i’ve also followed a pretty strict low carb diet to try to lose 10-15 pounds for the past couple months.  i’ve lost some inches and about 7 pounds but my legs still look very big. could a high intake of protein be responsible for keeping my legs bulked up?  any suggestions would be appreciated.  thx

I’m a guy, but I have the same problem – get bulked up way too easily.  One time last year when totally bored, I was watching this show on women bodybuilders (ahem), and they were talking about how the style of the sport has changed in recent years and that the women don’t want to bulk up anymore.  So the women who WERE bulked up had to adjust to the new style, and they were saying that the way they lost muscle mass was to cut way back on their protien intake.  That’s what they said and it makes some sense I guess.  I’m cutting back some but no results so far. – Tony

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Relax.  The thick calves are a perfect compliment to the adam’s apple. Proportion.

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I naturally bulk up with muscle when I gain weight.  I’ve never had much fat-pinch thickness around my waist (usually 3/8" to 5/8").  I’ve found: 1.  Losing weight is easy when you’re mostly muscle — a 600 calorie deficit will lose a pound of muscle, while it takes 3400 calories to get rid of a pound of fat. 2.  Just eat a normal diet to lose weight.  Lo carb just throws your chemistry off and you’ll feel worse than you would by simply cutting back a bit. 3.  I run faster when lighter.  Bulky muscles are dead weight for a distance runner.  Note that the really fast guys and gals are usually quite thin. 4.  If you’re the "put on mostly muscle" type, you’ll always have stronger looking legs than "normal" people of the same weight.  As you lean out your body, your profile thickness (just above the navel) will get very thin.  If you’re skinny there, you know you’re at a good distance running weight. 5.  Don’t worry, your legs will get smaller as you lose weight. —  Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick…and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, but apparently i have a body type where i do bulk up and build -a lot- of muscle.  i know it’s beneficial to lift for many reasons, but i’ve been really trying to get more lean-looking, so i quit lifting about a month ago and upped the running and x-training cardio.. i’ve also followed a pretty strict low carb diet to try to lose 10-15 pounds for the past couple months.  i’ve lost some inches and about 7 pounds but my legs still look very big. could a high intake of protein be responsible for keeping my legs bulked up?  any suggestions would be appreciated.  thx

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yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick…and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, but apparently i have a body type where i do bulk up and build -a lot- of muscle.  i know it’s beneficial to lift for many reasons, but i’ve been really trying to get more lean-looking, so i quit lifting about a month ago and upped the running and x-training cardio.. i’ve also followed a pretty strict low carb diet to try to lose 10-15 pounds for the past couple months.  i’ve lost some inches and about 7 pounds but my legs still look very big. could a high intake of protein be responsible for keeping my legs bulked up?  any suggestions would be appreciated.  thx

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah i guess this may sound a bit strange, but here goes..  after years of lifting i have pretty beefy, muscular legs for a chick…and i’m getting frustrated by it.  i’ve read many articles saying how women can’t "bulk up" from strength training, but apparently i have a body type where i do bulk up and build -a lot- of muscle.  i know it’s beneficial to lift for many reasons, but i’ve been really trying to get more lean-looking, so i quit lifting about a month ago and upped the running and x-training cardio.. i’ve also followed a pretty strict low carb diet to try to lose 10-15 pounds for the past couple months.  i’ve lost some inches and about 7 pounds but my legs still look very big. could a high intake of protein be responsible for keeping my legs bulked up?  any suggestions would be appreciated.  thx

If you’re eating at or below maintenance calories then you won’t put on any muscle (complete beginners sometimes manage this neat trick but that doesn’t sound like you) regardless of how many of those calories come from protein. If you’re eating ~500 cals below maintenance then you will lose weight – some of it will be fat and some of it will be muscle. Ellis — Apply yourself.  Take a few risks.  Have fun with it.

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These gizmos are a waste of effort for a first marathon. Just get your weekly base and long runs up there.

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i run and train 4 marathon with a hrm your 70% is between 142–160?? it will get better as your heart get stronger i was crushed too but i got over it tempo run plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In another post (thanks for all the responses) I shared that I just recieved an HRM for father’s day. Can/Should I use it to: A.    Pace my long runs and eventual (no time goal… just to finish) marathon? B.    Estimate how long it will take me to finish? If A is true… then, I presume that B. is somewhat true. Today, I went out for a quick 4 mile run with the goal of staying at 65-70% of my estimaged Max HR. I was saddened to see it sooooo slow. I mean… my normal 9:30 pace was slashed to 12:00. EGAD! The run felt wonderful…. but I was crushed to find out how slow I should be If I were estimating my marathon pace keeping my HR at 70%, (not adjusting for cardiac creep), I run a 12 minute mile for the marathon? Any thoughts? Thanks!

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In another post (thanks for all the responses) I shared that I just recieved an HRM for father’s day. Can/Should I use it to: A.    Pace my long runs and eventual (no time goal… just to finish) marathon?

Once you learn how to use it as one but not the only measure of your effort, then yes, a HRM can be helpful in pacing long runs, and even your marathon after the first few miles of excitement settle out. B.    Estimate how long it will take me to finish?

Others will probably post on estimating your marathon time from the times of shorter races you’ve done (if any), but you will get a better feel for this over time as you put in some longer runs in training, with or without a HRM. If A is true… then, I presume that B. is somewhat true. Today, I went out for a quick 4 mile run with the goal of staying at 65-70% of my estimaged Max HR. I was saddened to see it sooooo slow. I mean… my normal 9:30 pace was slashed to 12:00. EGAD! The run felt wonderful…. but I was crushed to find out how slow I should be

Max HR is not easy to estimate properly, and you really can’t go by formulas.  Instead of using some formula for % of estimated HR, I would suggest simply keep running as you were before, and record your average HR for each run (if your HRM gives the average for the whole run, not just final HR).  Then over time you can see how different HRs affect your recovery and eventually you can test your Max HR directly, or learn about the so called "lactate threshold" (LT) heart rate and what that means for different kinds of training runs.   While I’m learning that LT is more a region of effort than a single HR level, it is still much more important than Max HR for training.  I don’t think I’ve reached my Max HR more than twice in the last 5 years, but I’ve come to know my LT area and I try to set up my training based on this.  HR is just biofeedback and it tells you the state of your heart’s effort based on alot of things, not just running effort; forget the formulas and just watch it for a while to get a feel for what its telling you. – Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If I were estimating my marathon pace keeping my HR at 70%, (not adjusting for cardiac creep), I run a 12 minute mile for the marathon? Any thoughts? Thanks!

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HRM’s are for training. The basic theory is to: one, keep you from working too hard on easy (recovery) days, and two, make sure you are working hard enough on the hard days. By keeping records you can work out a best guesstimate of what your finishing time might be (a better way would be to run some shorter races, 10K’s and a half marathon and use one of the formulas to predict your marathon finishing time) On race day go by time, a three week taper combined with super hydration and super nutrition, plus the excitement of the moment will tend to throw your "normal" HR right out the window. Anyway for your first- concentrate on finishing. They are a lot more fun that way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In another post (thanks for all the responses) I shared that I just recieved an HRM for father’s day. Can/Should I use it to: A.    Pace my long runs and eventual (no time goal… just to finish) marathon? B.    Estimate how long it will take me to finish? If A is true… then, I presume that B. is somewhat true. Today, I went out for a quick 4 mile run with the goal of staying at 65-70% of my estimaged Max HR. I was saddened to see it sooooo slow. I mean… my normal 9:30 pace was slashed to 12:00. EGAD! The run felt wonderful…. but I was crushed to find out how slow I should be If I were estimating my marathon pace keeping my HR at 70%, (not adjusting for cardiac creep), I run a 12 minute mile for the marathon? Any thoughts? Thanks!

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In another post (thanks for all the responses) I shared that I just recieved an HRM for father’s day. Can/Should I use it to: A.    Pace my long runs and eventual (no time goal… just to finish) marathon? B.    Estimate how long it will take me to finish? If A is true… then, I presume that B. is somewhat true. Today, I went out for a quick 4 mile run with the goal of staying at 65-70% of my estimaged Max HR. I was saddened to see it sooooo slow. I mean… my normal 9:30 pace was slashed to 12:00. EGAD! The run felt wonderful…. but I was crushed to find out how slow I should be If I were estimating my marathon pace keeping my HR at 70%, (not adjusting for cardiac creep), I run a 12 minute mile for the marathon? Any thoughts? Thanks!

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I think I still have a lot to learn.

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I think I still have a lot to learn.

You have come to a great place for that learning; it would be a good idea to read through the FAQ if you haven’t done so already. For training advice and questions not addressed in the FAQ there are many regulars here that give great advice. Donovan in particular is well-respected (by me anyways) and has asked several great questions. It is fun and a bit awe-inspiring to read about how "the Kenyans" or any other distance runner trains, but it would be a mistake to emulate the training plan just because they are successful. Even following the training schedules of the more successful runners posted here would be overtraining for me, and I would imagine for you as well. FWIW the FAQ mentions books for beginning runners. The best in the bunch IMHO is the older one by Jim Fixx which is available in most public libraries. A newer book not mentioned in the faq (IIRC) that would be useful to you is The Runner’s Handbook by Bob Glover. Best of luck, Matthew

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It is fun and a bit awe-inspiring to read about how "the Kenyans" or any other distance runner trains, but it would be a mistake to emulate the training plan just because they are successful.

This is an excellent point. I remember reading somewhere, I think it was Daniels, about how great runners often receive questions about "what training do you do". But the problem with these questions is that they ignore the big picture — the process that the athlete had to go through to get to their current training. Another problem is that often, the reported "routines" of an elite may reflect a week during peak training, something that they build up to each season as opposed to something they maintain year-round. Most great athletes (unlike many of todays beginners) didn’t just suddenly decide to start running marathon from doing no training. The 100+ mile per week workloads were gradually built up to over years of training. One of the bitter lessons I learned early on is that the human body really does not like surprises. Increases in training load need to be very gradual. If you’re prepared to build up over a year, you will get good results, but if you want to build up over a few weeks, you’ll just get hurt.  I have been able to run several 60+ mile weeks this year and a 70 miler (with intervals 3x/week), but I built up to that very gradually over several months (using about a 10% milage increase every 3 weeks).  This is in contrast to the end of ’03 where I almost reinjured myself on 40mpw training with two fairly easy speed workouts each week.  The problem at that point is that I just jumped into training without a good training plan, and pushed training load too quickly on too many fronts. So the training routines of the elites should not be seen in a vacuum, because there are usually two bigger pictures to consider:  how the "training routine" fits into the athletes yearly calendar, and how one builds up to a level of fitness where such a routine can be considered. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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I think I still have a lot to learn.

Let’s start with the important stuff for now — Keep running, mostly at an easy pace. Don’t make sudden changes to your training — your body can only adapt so quickly, and you’ll only hurt yourself if you change your training faster than your body can adapt. Good rule of thumb for changing training: make a slight change every 3 weeks if you like. A 10% increase in milage, OR a slight increase in speed work (e.g. add an extra rep to a speed session). Don’t increase two types of stress at the same time — one or the other. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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Hello, I read in an electronic newsletter I get that the kenyans do more sprint training than most other runners. There is also a distance runner going to the olympics who does more sprint training than LSD, he sprints from 1-3 minutes in most of his training. What are your thoughts on including sprint training, especially for shorter distances like 5k? The 5k route I train on is in a park so it is unpaved with a lot of short hills so it’s kind of like intervals. I also do a LSD day and I was thinking of doing sprints on another day. I try to get out biking most of the other days. Does that sound like a decent training plan? Thanks.

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Hello, I read in an electronic newsletter I get that the kenyans do more sprint training than most other runners.

I think it’s pretty hard to say what "the Kenyans" do. Apart from the fact that "the Kenyans" is a huge generalisation, there are few authoritative accounts of what they do. There is also a distance runner going to the olympics who does more sprint training than LSD, he sprints from 1-3 minutes in most of his training. What are your

If you can do it for reps of 1-3 minutes, it’s not sprinting. Not even close. thoughts on including sprint training, especially for shorter distances like 5k?

I think throwing around terms like "sprint" is a bad idea, especially if your usage is not even correct. It is better to talk in terms of mile pace, 800m pace, 5k pace, etc. Many programs call for *some* training at a fairly high speed, 800m pace or so. It’s difficult to hold this pace for more than 200m. One way to start incorporatng high speed training like this is to do strides at the end of a run. Google for these, it’s been discussed already. The 5k route I train on is in a park so it is unpaved with a lot of short hills so it’s kind of like intervals.

Not really. It’s only "like intervals" if you run it hard. But most of your training should be at an easy pace. Take a look at   http://www.panix.com/~elflord/vdot.html for recommendations on different training paces. The "E/L" pace is a good pace for long runs, "R" pace for short intervals, "I" pace for long intervals. For 5k performance, you should include both of these in your program at various stages. I also do a LSD day and I was thinking of doing sprints on another day. I try to get out biking most of the other days. Does that sound like a decent training plan?

It doesn’t sound like a training plan (let alone a decent one) Before you begin, there are some questions you need to think about. It’s impossible to even begin to formulate a training plan without addressing these: (1) how much milage are you currently running ? and how many times a week do you run ? What does your typicaly training week look like at present ? (2) how much time do you have to devote to running ? Are you interested in increasing the volume of training you are doing ? (3) how important is biking versus running ? (4) what are your goals as a runner ? (5) have you done any speed work before ? If so, what ? (6) have you been injured at any stage ? If so, when and what was the injury ? (7) what is your current performance gradient ? Are you improving rapidly on your current training ? [probably more, but that's all I can think of now] Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

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